In Defense of Obama

Hello All,

It looks like today has seen a bit of "buyer's remorse" for Barack Obama.

We've seen the meme loud and clear. From FISA to the faith-based funding to (apparently?) abortion, everyone seems convinced that Obama has moved massively to the center, dragging the support of Liberals along.

Let me be clear: I am a moderate. My individual positions vary, but I don't agree with many of you on some areas of policy. I don't think that invalidates my opinion, however.

FISA

Let's look at the circumstances here. The "compromise" was passed with the blessing of Pelosi, and Reid hasn't moved heaven and Earth to stop it. From every indication I've seen, it's going through. It is going to be passed, because there are not enough people in Congress who agree with you folks to stop it.

What would happen if Obama came out against it?

First, we would reinforce the "Super Liberal" label.

Second, it would show his weakness in the party, because he couldn't stop the bill even if he wanted to. (I'm guess his staff was making calls while we waited on that statement.)

Third, it wouldn't set up a good relationship with the House upon his inauguration.

It's not good politics for him or for us.

Finally, I think we can assume safely that terrorists want McCain elected. Our foreign policies have been tremendously helpful to foreign radicals of all flavors, because they make us seem more like the bad guys. Every time we look worse, extremists might look a little better. I don't put it past radical terrorists to try something, if only have a better chance to keep their recruitment up.

Faith Funding

I know many of you don't want religion anywhere near government, and you have a right to disagree about where funds can go. That is your right. I ask only fout questions:

Have you ever been to a Progressive Church?

Do you have a bias regarding all religion that might cloud your opinion on the policy involved?

Do you think this fails the Lemon Test, with the safeguards Obama proposed? Do you think a former constitutional law professor would embarrass himself in this area?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_test# Lemon_test

Abortion

Obama said he opposed late-term abortions because of "mental distress." Mental distress is not Mental Illness.

I can't stick around for comments - send me an e-mail if you'd like - I promise to reply, no matter how hot the flames are.



Display:


Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I'm not convinced that FISA actually will do much to protect us here. I think if terrorists attack again, it will be either an attack that kills our soldiers on a mass scale in Iraq or a very prominent attack in Europe.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:16:31 PM EST

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

" Finally, I think we can assume safely that terrorists want McCain elected. "

- No we can't . Thats an absurd statement .

I really don't know how you can possibly know that for certain.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:16:48 PM EST

Re: In Defense of Obama (2.00 / 0)

Because every intelligence report that comes out concludes that Bush's actions are helping recruitment with terrorist organizations. McCain wants to continue those actions. Simple really.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

source? (none / 0)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: source? (2.00 / 0)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071700099. html


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks... (none / 0)

however - i dont see how the article link you provided proves your claim.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks... (2.00 / 0)

My statement: "Bush's actions are helping recruitment with terrorist organizations"

From that article: "That report, like the one issued yesterday, said that the Iraq war was a primary recruitment vehicle for al-Qaeda. "


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Doesn't necessarily follow , unless you can read the minds of all the numerous terrorist groups or individuals or states across the world.

By the way if we are going to be making such claims , someone could easily point to Hamas , Castro , Ahmadinejad all saying favorable things about Obama.

So lets not sink to making such claims because it doesn't make much sense and really doesn't have much consequence anyway..


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Agreed - it's certainly not a good campaign strategy, and I had doubts about putting it in at all.

But it is something to be mindful of. I'm sure Al-Quida would love nothing less than trying to screw with our elections.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Al Queda/Hamas/Castro/Iran love Republicans (none / 0)

According to the CIA analysis, when Al-Queda made pro-Kerry statements in the last election, it was a clear attempt to throw the election to Bush.  Apparently Al-Queda figured out that the american voters don't like Al-Queda, and so would vote against whoever they "endorsed." And they figured out that Bush was great for them (invading Iraq instead of pursuing Al-Queda, legitimizing Al-Queda as the leader of the anti-US movement, etc.) so they did what they could to get Bush re-elected. Al-Queda's propaganda was extremely effective, because the Republicans played along (they have the same agenda in this case - both wanted Bush re-elected).

So now that we've demonstrated that anti-american terrorists can manipulate US elections, and that Republicans are great for anti-american terrorists, they're all playing the same game - endorse Democrats to keep Republicans in power.

If we were smart, we'd ignore it, because the alternative gives Hamas, etc., influence over our elections (a bad thing). Unfortunately, the Republicans see the opportunity to use Hamas/Iranian/Castro propaganda to their personal benefit, so they're playing right into  the their hands.


by laird on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (2.00 / 0)

PLEASE. The Bush administration has been AMAZING for terrorists. They have gone from the fringes to legitimate movements. They have gotten huge numbers of supporters on their side, and they can't do that if they have an American president that the Middle East and the world as a whole doesn't seriously hate. McCain wouldn't be as bad as Bush, but they ARE hoping for him to get in office so they can keep up their recruiting. Also to keep our troops in Iraq instead of moving to where they actually are located. They've JUST ABOUT gotten Afghanistan back. If we don't remove troops from Iraq, they might succeed!


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

You have a legitimate claim on the first one , however making the case that they want Mccain to be elected is going into the avenue of mind reading .

Which I don't do .

Ms. Cleo the psychic is better at that than I am.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I would dispute YOUR last point.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I think it was very, very clear in 2004 that al-Qaeda wanted Bush to be reelected.  As for what they want now, God only knows.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I'm almost tempted to say you should save your breath. No one wants to hear this now. They are too busy looking for anything that will help them push the latest meme. Obama ordered a banana split last month with a cherry on top. He ordered one today and told them to hold the cherry. OMG, he flip-flopped. Or was that a "lurch"? I can't keep them straight.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:17:08 PM EST

OMG!!! (none / 0)

He ordered a banana-company stock split (i.e. oppression of third-world workers) and a cherry (i.e. virgin intern)?!?  Truly, the outrage doth seethe.


by username on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

It is amazing how much the Netroots can fall into memes, just like other media.

Obama knew what he was doing. He expected "licks" for supporting the compromise. There's nothing wrong with criticism - I just didn't like some of the CW cropping up.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:29:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (2.00 / 0)

Obama said he opposed late-term abortions because of "mental distress." Mental distress is not Mental Illness.

Ayep.  "Mental distress" is a far cry from an actual diagnosed medical disorder (which would be included in the exemption).

I disagree with Obama on this issue, as I oppose late-term abortion bans, but let's be honest: Obama's position ain't exactly radical-right.

I think the story that everyone missed in this was that he was willing to actually discuss abortion with an evangelical publication, and even in doing so, remained firm in saying that there must be strict medical exemptions written into late-term abortion bans.  He wasn't exactly telling them what they wanted to hear.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:20:04 PM EST

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I think he should go even further and run on a campaign of ending abortion by focusing on the root causes. Sex ed, easier access to birth control, easier access to the morning after pill. Combine that with promoting abstinence and/or self-control. Perhaps we can't insist that teens refrain from sex, but we can all feel comfortable telling 15 year olds that they shouldn't screw other people for the hell of it, right? We can't ever stop abortions, but we can minimize them if we really try and that would be something that would make most people happy and end this stupid argument for awhile.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I don't know how much he says so now, but that's almost a verbatim quote from Audacity of Hope.

We can all work together to reduce abortions.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

No, I remember seeing him having said something similar. It was impressive to me, because it was something I had seen for a long time. Lots of people who vote Republican solely because of abortion. And we get so caught up in deciding whether it should be legal that we lose sight of the real goal. Which is, at its very core, the same for everyone.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:44:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Quote: 'Perhaps we can't insist that teens refrain from sex, but we can all feel comfortable telling 15 year olds that they shouldn't screw other people for the hell of it, right? '

No, I do not agree. What you propose makes me feel very uncomfortable. Sex negative positions like this are anathema. I am OK with teaching 15 year olds the mechanics of sex. And stressing the outcomes. My own personal view is that there are nowhere near enough abortions. We need religious ceremonies that celebrate abortions (which my own tradition does have and does perform). The views in this diary are so extremely sex negative I can not endorse them.


by DaleA on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I'm okay with teaching them the mechanics, too. But 15 year olds, as a general rule, are too young to be moving beyond third base with anyone who asks. But if you don't think so, then where's your limit? 14? 13? 12? Were you fine with the movie Taxi Driver where Jodie Foster is getting pimped out as a 12.5 year old?

Look, obviously there are individuals who know what they want and would do it anyway, but lotsa teens don't, particularly ones without a proper upbringing to balance out a lack of sex ed in school. I'm not suggesting that we teach shame, I'm suggesting that we teach moderation and self-control. And that they should decide what they want for themselves out of the moment rather than in it.

What is your religion, if I may ask?


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:33:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Well, to be precise, Obama went on to split the baby on this issue and said: "I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy"

So his definition of "Mental distress" includes diagnosed medical disorders.


by souvarine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (2.00 / 0)

By physical, I think he means "diagnosed."

Mental issues are physical, at least in part. That's why Anti-Depressants work.

However, I'm splitting hairs. Main point is that every quote of his is going to be read in the context of the latest meme. Thus "refine my policies" becomes OMG HE'S NOT LEAVING IRAQ!!!!


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

The distinction between physical and mental conditions is very clear in the law.  A mental illness will never be a "serious physical issue," no matter how much you want to play around with the words.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

In both layman's and technical terms the distinction that Obama proposes between "Mental distress" and "a serious physical issue" categorizes all forms of mental health under "mental distress." See Wikipedia for example. I would love to believe that Obama mis-spoke here, but the longer view of his history on the issue of late-term abortions suggests he thinks we can prohibit them except in extreme life and limb threatening situations.


by souvarine on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:44:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Thanks for the correction. I won't repeat the falsehood.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's abortion stance (none / 0)

Which strategy is it:

1) He's attempting to play the wingnuts.

2) He's trying to push McCain into the wingnut category to get more moderate Republicans, solidy his solid ground with independents, and win back some of disgruntled dems.

3) He said what he believed to that Christian paper.

4) He just had a WORM moment.

I sure as hell it's not 3.  As for 1, I know Obama is a talented politician but I'm not sure if he can even pull this off as some of these wingnuts are no different than the folks who still wanted to keep the South segregated.  2 is possible given that McCain has been really pushing the Supreme Court argument.  As for 4, well, Obama has to cut down on the WORM moments.


by Blazers Edge on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:33:25 PM EST

Re: Obama's abortion stance (none / 0)

I think he was trying to give the interviewer something "positive to report."

Current meme makes that stupid, it seems.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (2.00 / 1)

does anyone care to read the actual  interview?
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life_art icle.php?id=7591
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:37:51 PM EST

Re: In Defense of Obama (2.00 / 0)

Oh, hell no. They might not have anything to complain about if they did that. Can't take the chance.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I'm not sure why you think that would help. Obama takes the conservative position on a number of issues in this interview where he in the past he preserved some ambiguity. For example:

Strang: Your plan specifically prohibits discriminatory hiring policies based on religion.
Obama: There's always a religious exemption there from Title VII.

Strang: Not being able to proselytize through a program that receives funding--how would that be enforced?
Obama: You know, the truth of the matter is, a lot of faith-based organizations currently are doing a great job on this issue, and they recognize that when they are administering federal funds, their priority has to be to provide high-quality services and they are not interested in discriminating or proselytizing. Obviously, there may be some who try to use these funds in inappropriate ways, but I think that's the tiny minority of those who really just want to serve their communities and do the right thing.

Strang: You've said you're personally against abortion and would like to see a reduction in the number of abortions under your administration. So, as president, how would do you propose accomplishing that?

Obama: I think we know that abortions rise when unwanted pregnancies rise. So, if we are continuing what has been a promising trend in the reduction of teen pregnancies, through education and abstinence education giving good information to teenagers. That is important--emphasizing the sacredness of sexual behavior to our children. I think that's something that we can encourage. I think encouraging adoptions in a significant way. I think the proper role of government. So there are ways that we can make a difference, and those are going to be things I focus on when I am president.


by souvarine on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Well, consider me confused about the first answer.

The rest seems fine, save "abstinence."

That's been shown to not work. That word's inclusion is representative of one of three things I dislike about Obama.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:35:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

His answer to "how would that be enforced?" is that "the truth of the matter is, a lot of faith-based organizations currently are doing a great job on this issue" What does that mean, exactly? That we should trust them? That so few would abuse the funding that enforcement doesn't matter?

His response to how he would implement his personal opposition to abortion is equally disturbing. The idea that sexual behavior is sacred, or that adoption is a solution, not to mention abstinence, is completely disconnected from the realities of unwanted pregnancies. And nowhere does he affirm the basic principle that the choice is the woman's.


by souvarine on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Abstinence-ONLY education doesn't work.

Abstinence Education
TEACHER: OK, this is how you have sex, this is how you can be safe, this is what you can do to protect yourself and make a safe choice. That said, you'll be better off if you try not to have sex until you're sure you're ready.

Abstinence-Only Education:
TEACHER: Don't have sex.
STUDENT: Why?
TEACHER: Because it's wrong.
STUDENT: Suppose I DID want to have sex, how would I protect myself?
TEACHER: Well, if I told you that, then you might use that information. The best thing is just not to even try.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Correct. My bad, and I'm glad about it.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:14:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

emphasizing the sacredness of sexual behavior (none / 0)

Is there some point to this superstitious drivel? What is he carrying on about? Is this what we have come to expect from Dems?

More reasons for PUMA.


by DaleA on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:26:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Obama said very, very clearly that it would have to be a serious PHYSICAL issue to justify a late-term abortion.  So let's not invent our own position which allows for mental illness but not "distress," which I guess is defined as just feeling froo-froo that day.  I've heard all this talk about Obama being our Reagan, but he should be working to dispel the myth that abortions are happening right up to the ninth month for all sorts of random reasons, not reinforcing it by saying he'd ban all those "mental distress" abortions.

On FISA, I do not take it as a given, at all, that everyone else's vote was set in stone and Obama had to play from there.  He's the leader of the party and he has even more of a bully pulpit than President Bush himself.  If he took a strong position and assured the party that he'd be helping to rebut the GOP talking points throughout the campaign, he could certainly change the dynamics.

I'm hearing a lot of resignation that doesn't seem consistent with what Obama promised to deliver.  If he can't even say liberal things during the campaign, how do people expect him to actually get away with doing liberal things once in office?  


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:08:14 AM EST

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I don't take the given.

But seeing how much time was spent before h gave a position, I think it's clear they were calling up Senators and House Leaders.

As much as you might dislike the FISA bill, it's what we have. Obama doesn't have the clout to face down both houses of Congress until he gets that address change.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I find it very, very, very, very implausible that Obama was working really hard to move the caucus on this issue and simply couldn't find the votes.

It is a fact of politics that we always want to believe our preferred candidate agrees with us in their heart, even when they do the exact opposite.  But when a candidate takes the leftward position during the Democratic primary ("I will filibuster any bill with telecom immunity") and then suddenly votes with the Republicans once the general election starts, we can all see what that is.  I think you're kidding yourself if you believe that Obama really and truly wanted to stick with the leftward position, but goshdarnitall, things just wouldn't work out.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Believe it. He didn't release a statement for a very long time for a reason. It was something he didn't want to do.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:01:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Heh.  I require more evidence than you to believe it, apparently.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Oooooohhh... I'm tempted to TR you just for implying that my opinion is not infallible. But I guess I can be the better man here.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

I'm not in his head.

However, he did take FOREVER to release something, so much so that people on blogs and TV were wondering about it.


by Falsehood on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

Judging by his response today, Obama doesn't need anyone defending him. He can do it pretty well himself, and he's clearly willing to take the heat.

It's actually pretty refreshing to have someone in that position who actually encourages dissent, provides access for that disagreement, and is willing to respond directly.

My opinions on the matters aside, I'm impressed by his style. That kind of openness is something new.


Know Your Rights!
by BobzCat on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:02:03 AM EST

remarkable (2.00 / 1)

in spite of being lied to over and over on every key issue we still have the "apologists for Obama". People never learn. This is how we got Bush.


by tarheel74 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:25:55 AM EST

Re: In Defense of Obama (none / 0)

The netroots just have to realize that your just not that important to the average person ,believe me I have never heard anybody talking about mydd or daily kos in the real world.You guys need to get out of the bubble and see what people are really worried about.And it's not the Fisa bill.


by redtime12 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:09:36 AM EST


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